Do you think I had my artistic and music civil rights violated? The owner of a bar kicked me out since it seems they don't like original music where the first week I went, they had no problem with it. They claimed original music was bad for their business and said other rude things. My first topic like this I left on the Advice messageboard was locked out. Wonder why a site like this that supports so called punk and artistic thinking is against this topic?
The advice board isn't for legal advice. It's got nothing to do with this site's inclinations to support any genres of music, and we aren't going to re-write forum use policies simply because you tell us you're a punk.
And privately-owned bars can implement whatever rules they like about the kind of music played there. Your artistic and civil rights aren't any help to you there, because they don't allow you to impose your music in private premises where it's not wanted.
I see you're from the UK and know nothing about American law. You look like a goth or whatever but seems like you're like the rest of the establishmentment or beaurocrats. Are you sure you should be part of a music site that supports artists and musician? Perhaps rethink your life?
I'm a musician. I don't look goth or punk or anything else alternative in the slightest. I look like a girly girl, but I play and sing heavy music mostly.
However, when it comes to gigging, you do what the bar wants. If you want to make money from doing gigs in bars, you accept the fact that you do not have artistic liberty, you do what they want as they are the ones paying you.
You can't get a job in McDonald's and then decide you want to make sandwiches instead of burgers. You do what you're paid for.
Although I play and sing mostly fairly heavy music, there have been many times where my gigs consisted of nothing but traditional Irish music, as that is what the bar wanted.
If you're not willing to diversify for the people who are paying you to do so, of course they're not gonna want you there.
Hey look I've seen other forum post and you people are rude. What right has this person got to call me a punk and by the way this was a free open jam session. The topic of artistic rights and freedom of speech is not a light issue when people often want to supress music. How do you think a website like this can exist? As for insulting, I think the others members have insulted me more than I have them.
Strange that you call us all rude, when I know I've not been rude to anyone, and most people are pretty nice on this site.
Vermin did not call you a punk. If you read his post, you'll see that he said 'you tell us you're a punk.'
You retaliated with telling him that he was British and therefore had no knowledge of American law. That's a strange one, because I'm Irish and somehow manage to know a good bit about American and UK laws.
As far as your 'freedom of expression' goes - a bar is a privately owned property. They have the right to refuse admission, or eject a person from their property at their discretion. If they didn't like what you are doing, they are well within their rights to stop it.
If you can't accept that, you shouldn't be a musician. Criticism, opression and soul-numbing gigs are par for the course.
As I said the first week I went to this open Jam, they were fine and liked my 3 original songs. Then the following week, they did what they did and besides that were very rude about. It seems musicians are being ripped off throughout the world with their music being pirated and people not appreciating any kind of creative process. All I'm doing is throwing out a topic. But it seems if a private establishment puts up a public sign for open jam, they shouldn't treat qualified or people who try to play music there like that without recourse. It doesn't seem just how these people act just since they own the place and on one hand making money from you, and on the other hand, acting or doing what they want.
Yeah it seems his response was set in stone and nothing could be done but there are alot of civil rights laws for artist and music in the US and I'm sure I can do something. And why does everyone keep saying this advice board is not for legal advice since this is an intellectual topic about freedom of speech and musical and artistic rights. It seems people on this site are kind of closed minded which surprises me since most people on this don't look like conformist but now I see you act like the people you are against.
Well you seem to think you know the answer but we'll see since there are alot of artist and civil rights people who are interested in freedom of speech so your "no" might turn into a yes. How are you so sure of yourself?
We're not narrow minded. We can't give legal advice here because none of us are qualified for it, and if somebody follows some advice given by a member of this site, it could have bad consequences for the site if things go wrong. We're protecting the site, so that it may continue to be there for musicians and everyone else who enjoys music.
There are a lot of laws in place to protect musicians, I agree. However, when you enter a private property, you tacitly agree to adhere to their standards and rules and if they're not happy, they can ask you to leave. It's the same as me telling a customer that is causing trouble in the restaurant I work in to leave. He may not be any harm to himself or anyone else, but if the staff are uncomfortable with his presence, he's asked to leave.
Unfortunately, that's just the way things work.
On a practical level, if you write and play your own stuff, you should really try to get into a studio and do some recording. Once you have a demo, you can canvass for gigs. It gets much easier once you have a demo done.
'Well you seem to think you know the answer but we'll see since there are alot of artist and civil rights people who are interested in freedom of speech so your "no" might turn into a yes. How are you so sure of yourself?'
Orrrrrrr, I could just lock this thread.
I'm sure of myself because I know what I'm talking about. I've been a gigging musician for long enough to know how the scene works and no amount of starry eyed wonder is going to prevent you from eventually realizing what's what and becoming just a little jaded.
Yes but if they are very rude about and come the owner comes up to you and says you were slurring your words after paying for the beer you drank, trying to provoke me into a fight and end up in jail, I think this kind infringes on my artistic rights. I am trying to promote my music to the public and there are not many places around me to do that so playing to people with a band was a good opportunity. Also I play many open jams in Texas and elsewhere and no one acted like this. I think people should realize their music and artist rights can be taken away and people should try to protect them.
That doesn't infringe on your rights. That's just some moron being a dickhead for no reason.
It's kind of difficult to protect what you perceive to be your rights, when you have no knowledge of what rights you pretty much give up by playing at open mics like this and playing in bars that are privately owned.
That's the easy way out for you people here. I've seen alot of other topics in this messageboard and this one is not as controversial as others. Why pick on me? I'm just trying to see what people think on the subject. Open it up to people.
It's not about controversy. I never said your thread was controversial.
It's more to do with the fact that you are refusing to accept anything that anyone else says to you and seem to think that you are right and everyone must agree with you. That doesn't make for much of a discussion.
If you are willing to take other opinions on board, then it could be a valid discussion, but so far, you haven't been doing that.
Well that was very well put! Thanks for calling the guy a dickhead and moron. Makes me feel better. It just seems weird since this place has a open jam and it is kind of a scam since they have almost professional sounding musicians playing cover songs. Then the cover band keeps playing for 2 hours and doesn't let anyone else go on. It becomes kind of like live karoke as other people are singing covers while the band is playing. It's kind of insulting to the minds of the audience and the owners claim it is for making money but the reason they are making money is for the open jam sign they have.
well the thing is, most open jams are full of people playing covers. Unfortunately, that's what bar owners want because, as you said, that's what brings in the money. Unfortunately, in most bars, people want music that they know and can sing along to. Believe me, I have to do a LOT of covers when I gig, just to keep audiences happy.
Have you considered doing covers with your own spin on them, until you become more well known? That's what I did. I changed one traditional Irish song into a pretty funky ska version and people liked it because they could still sing along, but it sounded new, and was more my style for playing. Just a suggestion.
Well I am listening but it seems everyone has their mind made up that it is not against artististic or freedom of speech rights. All I was supposed to play was 2 songs and they didn't even let me play my second song claiming they don't want original songs but allow cover songs. My songs were in the same genre as the club allowed. I wasted time, gas, and promotional value of a place like that because the owner decided to do that and this might influence people to go against me and my music in the community so you see what I'm getting at. It has wider implications than just telling me not to play. Also why this bias against original music. My songs are copyrighted and I have studied songwriting as well as having recorded in studios. I even received good feedback from industry professionals so what does this owner know?
People here aren't against freedom of expression, but know what it's like in the real world. You seem totally perplexed by the way things go in the world of gigging, and we're trying to explain that to you.
What the bar owner knows is what sells. He's not interested in promoting new artists, he's not interested in original music. He wants music that people know, will sing and dance to, which will encourage them to buy drinks. That's the world of singing in bars, unfortunately.
Well I can understand that but it's not like I'm playing 10 songs but just too. People should also try to appreciate people who are trying to write their own music and there should be room for that. It's not like everyone is writing original. Also where are the future songs going to come from if people don't get an opportunity to perform their songs. This site is for unsigned bands and it's not easy to get signed as well as get paid gigs for original music. It seems once people get used to the idea that they should only listen to tribute songs, they will get accustomed to it. If people can get convinced or other people start supporting original songs more to be played in places like open jams, than those people will go along. It's not like I was getting paid so what difference does it make if I sing 2 original songs that are 3 minutes each for 6 minutes total. I'm sure it is not going to hurt the place. But it seems to be a scam since if they are having a cover band, they should just say that and not have an open jam and fool people.
Original songs come about usually from people who have spent a few years doing covers in bars. I started off doing covers before I did originals, to get people to like my style of music and my voice, before I moved on to covers.
That's just how the industry is. I'm not saying that it's right. It annoys me as much as it annoys you. It's just that, if you want to be a musician, you have to accept how things are because fighting against it will lose you any support that you have.
I understand what your saying about gigging and the real world but it seems that in cases of open jams, people should be given the opportunity to sing original and that's what I'm going to fight for. It should not be an accepted practice just to do other songs and if an owner puts up a sign or has it on the internet somewhere, people should sing or play what they want. There was a guy standing there playing the tambourine but the owner didn't say anything and he didn't sound that good. It seems that these kind of people have to be challenged and if this one bar owner does it, then the next one will think they can do that too. Understand what I'm saying.
Yeah, I understand that. The only real advice I can give in that situation is to try find another, more open minded bar to do open mic in.
There are a lot of open mic nights here in Dublin and at most of them you pretty much have to play covers, but there are a few places that want originals. So just keep looking.
It seems that musicians should have a little more power than you say than a bar owner since they are contributing to the profits as well. Sure the bar owner can turn on the jukebox but people like seeing live music as well. It seems musicians should have more rights in places like bars to give them more power since they are the ones who have practiced and worked to write a song that they would like people to hear. Also people never take these open jams too seriously and you see all kinds of people up there. It seems odd that these people think so highly of themselves as to kick someone out.
Well that's interesting to meet someone from Dublin and also a musician. That is one cool thing about this site. I'm not trying to make waves but it has helped hearing what everyone has said. You are right since it is already difficult for musicians to make money and we are under the mercy of the bars or clubs. It seems the bars and clubs should become more tolerant to original music since it would actually help create new songs for future generations. This is where songwriters can get their future songs worked out and get feedback from the audience. Where do the big named bands come from except from small bars and clubs first.
You look like a goth or whatever but seems like you're like the rest of the establishmentment or beaurocrats.
I certainly don't look like a goth. And, being a 40-something law school graduate who works in banking, I really have no problem about getting called "establishment".
And why does everyone keep saying this advice board is not for legal advice since this is an intellectual topic about freedom of speech and musical and artistic rights.
And you'll notice that nobody has locked your thread here. Because this is the Intelligent Discussion forum. Not the Advice forum.
Dodo [forum info]
[PM]
Representing the demented psychotic underbelly of the American dream.
As an American who is familiar with American law, I feel I should point out than any rights you have, real or imagined, cease when they begin to infringe on the rights of others. You can sit in your own home and sing any song you want at a reasonable volume and no one can do a thing about it. When you are out in public or in someone's private establishment, you may be asked to take your songs elsewhere as you are infringing on their rights to not have to listen to you.
"You look like a goth or whatever but seems like you're like the rest of the establishmentment or beaurocrats."
crymoar?
-----
"When the government fears the people you have Liberty,
when the people fear the government yo have tyranny,
when injustice becomes law, Rebellion becomes Duty!"
~ Thomas Jefferson.
Actually I do write poetry, but I've never known anyone get depressed by reading "I love you (but your labia minora look like wicket-keeper's gloves)".
I suspect he writes depressing poetry by scented candle light, pausing to inhale some smoke from his cloved cigarettes.